[19:44] <Angie> hello

[19:45] <Xavier> Hi

[19:45] <Xavier> Welcome to the WebStudio

[19:45] <Angie> thanks

[19:46] <Xavier> Today we

[19:46] <Xavier> we're going to begin painting the on society, and I'm looking for advice on how I should begin

[19:47] <Xavier> Have you read through the information on the WebStudio?

[19:47] <Angie> doing that now

[19:48] <Xavier> Great

[19:48] <Xavier> Thanks alot

[19:48] <Xavier> Let me know when you're done

[19:49] <Xavier> By the way, the discussion forum on society has input from several folks on this topic ... that may be a helpful place to start

[20:00] <Xavier> Hi maimonide, welcome to the WebStudio

[20:02] <BokaNoN> ;)

[20:02] <Xavier> Hi Bokanon, welcome to the WebStudio

[20:03] <Xavier> Hi sfrdi

[20:03] <sfrdi> it;s dark

[20:03] <BokaNoN> its dim

[20:03] <sfrdi> can't see u very well

[20:03] <Angie> turn your brightness on your screen all the way up

[20:03] <BokaNoN> seems like you need more light in the studio

[20:04] <Xavier> Yeah, the cameras aren't reacting to the twilight here too well

[20:04] <BokaNoN> where you from, quux?

[20:04] <Xavier> I'm Quux

[20:05] <BokaNoN> ah

[20:05] <Xavier> I'll be using Quux to paste things in here

[20:05] <BokaNoN> i see. whats the topic this evening?

[20:05] <Xavier> This painting focuses on society and seeks to answer what are relationship is with society.

[20:06] <Xavier> Hi poison, welcome to WebStudio

[20:06] <poison> thanks

[20:06] <poison> :)

[20:06] <Xavier> I'm going to be pasting some quotes from our discussion forum on society

[20:06] <poison> rtfm told me bout here :)

[20:06] <BokaNoN> lol

[20:07] <Quux> WebStudio participants are asked to consider the following topic during May 1999:

[20:07] <Quux> How we interact in Society: Civil liberties and the limits of individuality (e.g.: Censorship, expression , the limits of free e-speech?

[20:07] <Quux> Your rights end at the line where they meet mine. But who is to say where that line is? Majority rule, is it fair enough? What about an individual's perspective?

[20:07] <Quux> What are the limits: our speech, our actions?

[20:07] <Quux> In society we engage in mutual contracts to keep order--from obeying

[20:07] <Quux> I posted these questions in the forum and had pretty interesting feedback

[20:07] <Quux> For instance:

[20:07] <Quux> This one from Chad ...

[20:08] <Quux> ..

[20:09] <Quux> What strikes me as interesting is the apparent need for a dynamic balance in society between censorship and free expression. How long has this topic been debated? Our society is based upon free speech yet, when the boundaries are probed, we are simultaneously probing our own personal conceptions about life and consequentially our differences of opinion often cause friction. This friction ranges thru all levels of society from family, race, religious beliefs

[20:09] <Quux> education, and economic status. At the same time, how bland would society be without the diversities that force us to grow and learn by challenging our preconceptions about life? Society is a process of evolution and of change and it is difficult to apprehend the meaning of righteousness in such a multi-leveled structure. One hopes that an attitude of honesty and understanding will, in the long run, be the motivating force behind a society that tempers inju

[20:09] <Quux> tempers injustice with compassion.

[20:09] <Xavier> And this one from Glenn...

[20:10] <Quux> We live in a mountainous terran. A small stream of water flows from the peaks down through the valleys. The land on each side of the stream harbors our houses. Each morning the children go to the stream and bring back the day's water requirements. Last week the water had a terrible smell and was discolored by an ugly brownish hue. That was bad. We could not drink the water without becoming ill. A group of people from the lower valley walked up to find the c

[20:10] <Quux> At the highest level of the mountain, two houses had built their shit buildings next to the stream. Each time they flushed, the mountain stream water turned brown with filth. It was the same contaminates that had been making us ill. We showed the people in those houses the brownish water their shit houses were causing and asked them to stop. They just laughed and said, "So what. We live in a free society and we can do what we want to do. And so can you." Th

[20:10] <Quux> So we all went back to our houses along the mountain stream and did: WHAT would you do?

[20:11] <BokaNoN> erm, your cutting/pasting doesn't seem to be clear

[20:11] <Xavier> How so?

[20:11] <Xavier> Ah, I see.

[20:11] <Xavier> Darn buffers.

[20:12] <BokaNoN> it was a good reply to Chad's posting however. It made things more personal and less philisophical.

[20:13] <Xavier> He also provided us with some imagery, didn't he?

[20:13] <BokaNoN> yeah, and a good sense of humor.

[20:13] <BokaNoN> oh, right, imagery for the painting

[20:14] <Xavier> As we sit here on day 1 of our painting session, the comments in the discussion forum may give us some insight as to what issues to focus on.

[20:14] <Xavier> They help us frame the painting.

[20:15] <Xavier> There are three other posts that I'd like to bring to your attention...

[20:15] <Xavier> Robert wrote about free speech:

[20:15] <Quux> When they wrote the 1st amendment they had no idea to the extent that society would come in communicating with each other. Take, for example, this forum: a totally anonymous method of spitting out your views to anyone who'll listen. In here you don't have to be responsible or literate or even credible.

[20:16] <Quux> All you have to do is be able to write. It used to be that you didn't really have to worry about what was said because nobody was listening. But no more.

[20:16] <Quux> In the wake of the Colorado massacre we are realizing more and more that some people are listening and that some speech may carry a price. It's all well and good to say "you can say anything, this is a free country" but why do so many hide behind the cloak of anonymity.

[20:16] <Quux> If a person truly believes in what they are willing to share with the rest of us, why should they hide behind miles of phone wires? Our forefathers didn't conceive freedom of speech so some schmock with a woody and/or handgun could spew hatred in the darkness.

[20:16] <Quux> That's all I have to say, and Robert's not my real name.

[20:16] <Angie> and who would determine credibility?

[20:16] <Xavier> (Hope I did a better job of pasting)

[20:17] <BokaNoN> exactly, who would determine credibility.

[20:17] <Angie> much better that time

[20:17] <Xavier> Thanks :)

[20:17] <Angie> and why should we need to qualify for the right to freedom of speech, that isnt freedom

[20:18] <Xavier> Prior to the advent of the Internet, there was less anonymity in the published/printed word.

[20:18] <Xavier> The Internet has made the world more accessible, but also less accountable.

[20:19] <BokaNoN> i think I should develop a 10 question test to determine whether an individual will have a right to freedom of speech.

[20:19] <Xavier> Are there limits to freedom? Should there be disclaimers or disclosures to guarantee the veracity of a comment?

[20:20] <BokaNoN> funny though, in this country freedom of speech is taken for granted and so easily abused

[20:20] <Xavier> How is it abused?

[20:21] <Xavier> Incidentally, we're getting to the crux of this month's topic, which is the limits we place on each other in societ.

[20:21] <BokaNoN> I think sometimes freedoms' boundaries are pushed just for the sake of pushing - not because there is a deeper reason behind it.

[20:22] <Xavier> As funny as it sounds, glenn's comment about people defecating upstream in the water supply explains the need for creating some semblance of societal order.

[20:22] <Xavier> Wouldn't that be called advocacy, Bokanon?

[20:22] <Xavier> Kind of the same reason test cases are forwarded?

[20:23] <Angie> i think we need to learn tolerance and understand that the more freedoms we take from others, the fewer we have ourselves

[20:23] <Xavier> That is, trying to expand the comfort zones or accepted constructs at a time when the world may be in flux.

[20:23] <Xavier> Cite some examples, if you would, Angie.

[20:24] <Xavier> By the way, I'm just prepping the canvas, adding some texture and color, awaiting for us to formulate the themes and composition for this painting.

[20:25] <Xavier> Do not hesitate to express your opinion on what my paintbrush should be doing to capture the concepts we're discussing here.

[20:25] <Angie> well, for example, the internet...many want to limit what information can be made available

[20:25] <BokaNoN> i agree, angie, except that, isn't it inevitable that when we take freedoms for ourselves that we also take freedoms away from others?

[20:25] <Xavier> In fact, that input (telling me what to paint on this canvas) is the essence of WebStudio.

[20:26] <Angie> boka, i dont always feel that is true

[20:26] <BokaNoN> not always, but sometimes it is true - in important circumstances.

[20:27] <BokaNoN> seems like important freedoms neccesarily take from anothers freedoms - thats what makes them valueable

[20:27] <Angie> how does the freedom of speech limit others freedoms when they have the option of not listening?

[20:27] <Xavier> in essence, aren't we discussing the tension between an individual and society, especially a society adamant about preserving individuality?

[20:28] <BokaNoN> true, but freedom of speech is a medium in which change only takes place among those willing to listen

[20:28] <Xavier> Scream "fire" in a crowded theatre

[20:28] <BokaNoN> what happens when freedom of speech leads to action?

[20:29] <Xavier> what is the difference between speech and action?

[20:29] <Xavier> I mean, think about it .... none of you are using your mouths to communicate

[20:29] <Xavier> you're enaging in a series of actions, typing on your keyboards ... is that speech?

[20:30] <BokaNoN> yeah, but it seems to me that the important expressions of freedom are always thru action - speech is a prelimanary step towards action

[20:30] <Xavier> you may think that the topics discussed in this forum are bad for national security, and try to poison this chatroom by typing in a program that would contaminate us with a virus

[20:30] <BokaNoN> hehe

[20:31] <Xavier> you can use the same keyboard to type emails to others condeming what we do as virulent and unamerican

[20:31] <Xavier> which is speech and which is action?

[20:32] <Xavier> isn't it therefore a part of action, kind of like when you execute someone ... does the execution begin when you pull the trigger, or when someone shouts the word "fire", ordering them to pull the triggers?

[20:32] <BokaNoN> im not saying that speech isn't an action

[20:33] <BokaNoN> the execution begins when the trigger is pulled

[20:33] <BokaNoN> exactly

[20:33] <Xavier> is it when a military junta condemns a man to die? or is it when the members of a society sit quietly, ie, not speaking, and let that junta take action

[20:33] <BokaNoN> the quiet members of society must first talk - then they must act

[20:33] <Xavier> angie, do you think the execution begins when the trigger is pulled, or when the person's condemned to death?

[20:35] <BokaNoN> did i scare everyone away? do i smell bad?

[20:36] <Xavier> i think it might've been the military talk

[20:36] <Xavier> how do you think we should proceed?

[20:36] <BokaNoN> hehe

[20:36] <BokaNoN> carefully and recklessly

[20:36] <Xavier> so far in our discussion, the imagery has been about someone defecating upstream, and the whole military-execution-speech thing

[20:36] <Xavier> hehe, i like the latter

[20:37] <Xavier> i've been here for 45 minutes *carefully* avoiding any form of obvious expression with this paint brush

[20:37] <BokaNoN> how do you feel we should proceed?

[20:37] <Xavier> maybe it's time to start making a statement with some sort of figurative imagery... or, not.

[20:38] <Xavier> i don't know ... in speaking to you this whole idea about a tongue pulling a trigger interests me

[20:38] <BokaNoN> yeah, i like that idea too

[20:38] <BokaNoN> if guns could talk

[20:39] <Xavier> on the other hand, maybe creating a painting with layer after layer of brushstroke -- one erasing the other, yet being influenced by the one underneath -- is a more complete depiction of how we relate to each other in society.

[20:39] <Xavier> Welcome back, Angie

[20:39] <Angie> good old aol, booted me

[20:39] <BokaNoN> well, i think the action is the person pulling the trigger - society comes down to the individuals

[20:39] <Xavier> we're at the point of discussing what to actually paint on this canvas

[20:39] <Xavier> yes, they actually suck

[20:40] <Xavier> one of our thoughts was, do something like paint a gun trigger's being pulled by a tongue

[20:41] <BokaNoN> not that the person giving the order isn't responsible but the individual has to make the choice.

[20:41] <Xavier> maybe we should have something so cliche. we also discussed having the idea of having brushstroke after brushstroke, without any clean image.

[20:41] <BokaNoN> which is why the concept behind military hierarchy is an interesting form of society

[20:43] <Xavier> so in belgrade tonight, is the actor NATO, is it Clinton, or the Air Force pilot?

[20:43] <BokaNoN> maybe you should rip a hole in the canvas and put the hardcopies of the society forum forcing there way thru

[20:43] <Xavier> or is it in some attenuated way you and I?

[20:43] <BokaNoN> i guess its very complicated, there are so many levels

[20:43] <Xavier> looking for a knife :)

[20:43] <BokaNoN> ;)

[20:44] <Angie> cool

[20:44] <BokaNoN> lol

[20:45] <BokaNoN> thats cool, with the shreds hanging out too

[20:45] <Xavier> i'm actually putting the messages on the shreds

[20:46] <Xavier> almost as if they're part of the viscera of the painting, aching to scream through the blandness of the strokes I've been painting for 45 minutes.

[20:46] <BokaNoN> an artwork expressing to society how society expresses thru art

[20:47] <Angie> i like that!

[20:47] <Xavier> incidentally, who executed this canvas? the guy wielding the knife? or was it it you?

[20:47] <BokaNoN> hehe, you did

[20:47] <Angie> you did it

[20:47] <BokaNoN> i don

[20:47] <BokaNoN> i don't want anything to do with it

[20:47] <BokaNoN> hehe

[20:47] <Xavier> i was only following orders, like that stealth bomber over belgrade tonight

[20:48] <BokaNoN> that was your choice

[20:48] <Angie> that is what personal responsibility is all about

[20:48] <BokaNoN> this is a discussion forum, not a rulebook

[20:48] <Xavier> well, in essence i could've chosen to ignore you, the same way many people choose to ignore society's dictates, and sometimes they're not as obvious

[20:49] <Angie> listening to suggestions, weighing the consequences and taking action based on our own convictions

[20:49] <BokaNoN> exactly

[20:49] <Xavier> i mean, i could've sat here and rationalized why your voice (ripping a hole in the canvas) shouldn't supercede mine, or others.

[20:49] <Xavier> i could've simply taken it as a joke and continued on with triggers and tongues ....

[20:49] <BokaNoN> you made the right choice, X

[20:50] <BokaNoN> ;)

[20:50] <BokaNoN> i was just kidding about the hole ripping

[20:50] <Xavier> the rules of this rulebook are that we collaborate with one another

[20:51] <Xavier> do you think I think that you were kidding?

[20:51] <Angie> you know, this whole process here tonight is symbolic of life in society

[20:51] <BokaNoN> i don't have to collaboarte though, do i? I could just tell you stupid inconsequntial or even degrading things - would you kick me off then?

[20:51] <Xavier> absolutely, it is nothing more than a mirror of society, angie

[20:51] <BokaNoN> did you think i was kidding?

[20:52] <Angie> you, the artist, individual...we are the voices from society and your painting is a result of the choices you make

[20:52] <BokaNoN> thats why Webstudio is a cool concept

[20:52] <Xavier> i think i would interact with you here the same way i would interact with you in a real life setting ... it's kind of different here, though, because by its very nature it's an experiment -- we're trying to prove a point.

[20:52] <Angie> now i get it LOL

[20:53] <BokaNoN> i think i told you to rip a hole in the canvas cause i felt your frustration in those wispy pacing-back-and-forth pastels

[20:53] <Angie> lol

[20:53] <Xavier> i think every joke at its core has an element of truth; i think in pursuits like this one, where arguably i hold all the cards, forum participants maybe apprehensive about their suggestions, and thereby at times cloaking in a joke what they're not so sure is a good or bad idea.

[20:54] <Xavier> sensitive to this perceived imbalance, i have a very quick, knee-jerk reaction that you would make.

[20:54] <BokaNoN> its a terrible idea "TAPE IT UP!"

[20:55] <Xavier> this process actually is a great ego-bruiser, angie, and prohibits me from really bonding with any piece i create here.

[20:55] <Xavier> i know that i'm the only person physically touching these paintings, but i do so in a forum where i attempt to not have the final say.

[20:55] <BokaNoN> why is that an ego-brusier, x?

[20:55] <Angie> i see

[20:55] <Xavier> interesting -- at this point i could be rushing for the tape, the same way i rushed for a knife...

[20:56] <BokaNoN> you think people will disklike it and think your no good?

[20:56] <Xavier> and my comments to you right now maybe an excellent example of defiance, although i really think they have to do more with my being very self-conscious of my actions (in light of what we've been talking about)

[20:56] <Xavier> which do you think it is?

[20:57] <Xavier> it's an ego-bruiser because i may find to be aesthetically appropriate or expressive is not as important as what all of us may find to be that way

[20:57] <Xavier> case in point, i have duct tape in my hand -- what do i do?

[20:57] <BokaNoN> erm, say that last thing again - why is it an ego-brusier?

[20:57] <Angie> dont tape it

[20:58] <Xavier> sure, that's a risk bokanon -- but one i'm obviously willing to take

[20:58] <BokaNoN> i think taping it would be a little bit TOO cerebral

[20:58] <Xavier> i do that everytime i go into a school and paint a mural with the kids -- im judged by their painting skills. so don't change the subject, what do i do with the duct tape?

[20:59] <Angie> throw it away, dont tape it

[20:59] <Xavier> god i wish you would've bothed disagreed -- that would've posed an interesting dilemma

[20:59] <Xavier> i'm putting the tape down.

[20:59] <BokaNoN> do you feel like you should tape it up? i mean, so far, all the ideas for the painting have come from outside you. shouldnt there be a balance between our opinions and your talent?

[21:00] <Xavier> this has been an incredible first session, and i'm really comfortable with our work-product in this small period of time.

[21:01] <Xavier> sure, and i think i intuitavely navigate through that balance. For instance, not reaching for the tape as quickly as i reach for the knife was, among other things, an editorial comment on my part.

[21:01] <Xavier> in essence, what i did was making you second guess what you said.

[21:02] <BokaNoN> cool

[21:02] <Xavier> Should I sing it?

[21:02] <Xavier> oops, sign

[21:02] <BokaNoN> fooey, i WILL single-handedly ruin your carrer Xavier!

[21:02] <Angie> it is amazing how uncomfortable it is to make suggestions when you arent the one painting

[21:03] <BokaNoN> really, i don't feel uncomfortable with it, its not my neck on the line

[21:03] <BokaNoN> ; )

[21:03] <Xavier> by infecting my computer with a virus, or sending emails to the NEA that my activities here are obscene and should be censored?

[21:03] <BokaNoN> no, by making you put horrible rips in your painting

[21:03] <Xavier> doesn't this go back to the anonymity point we started with?

[21:04] <Xavier> angie, how could i make it more comfortable?

[21:04] <Angie> i think that is an inside job , xavier

[21:04] <Angie> it was my own reluctance to tell another person to take action

[21:04] <Xavier> i agree that this process is very intimidating -- i know it to be in the real world. I thought by virtue of the anonymity online, some of the participants anxiety would be eased, but it really hasn't.

[21:05] <BokaNoN> i should be fun and interesting -not intimidating

[21:05] <Xavier> yeah, but i don't think it's peculiar to you, angie. most people who've visited the WebStudio feel the same way.

[21:06] <BokaNoN> i think sometimes the forum is a bit to serious

[21:06] <Xavier> Case in point, there are over 600 hits for this page, but no more than 30 people have actively participated in the creation of these paintings.

[21:06] <Angie> i believe we are socialized to question ourselves , to just watch the painting be made and trust the painter

[21:06] <BokaNoN> people get turned of by that seriousness - you can have a better conversation if its infused with humor and lightheartedness

[21:07] <Xavier> Three of us are in here, dropping bombs.

[21:07] <BokaNoN> hehe

[21:07] <BokaNoN> oh, thats what smells so bad

[21:08] <BokaNoN> actually i really like the way the canvas looks so far

[21:08] <Cortada> OOps, sorry

[21:08] <Cortada> Where were we?

[21:08] <Bezzie> hello

[21:08] <Cortada> Hi Bezzie, welcome to the WebStudio

[21:09] <BokaNoN> hi bezzie

[21:09] <Cortada> We're just wrapping up tonight's session, and we'll be back tomorrow at 8pm

[21:09] <Bezzie> this is brittney his dughter

[21:09] <Angie> ill be here!

[21:09] <BokaNoN> tommrow-8pm

[21:09] <Bezzie> bye

[21:09] <Angie> 8pm eastern

[21:09] <Bezzie> see you tommorow

[21:10] <Cortada> Yes, 8pm eastern

[21:10] <BokaNoN> where you live angie?

[21:10] <Angie> texas

[21:10] <BokaNoN> austin or houston?

[21:10] <Angie> lol...Odessa

[21:10] <BokaNoN> hehe, sorry

[21:11] <BokaNoN> i didn't mean it to sound that way - as if there were only 2 choices

[21:11] <Angie> that's cool.

[21:11] <BokaNoN> well then, good evening - seizure labor.

[21:12] <Angie> thanks, i enjoyed this

[21:12] <Cortada> By the way, that last statement before the technical incident, stated that the three of us were here dropping bombs, creating a painting on society, as if society as awhole had empowered us to speak on its behalf.

[21:12] <Cortada> See you tomorrow night,

[21:12] <Angie> ok, ill be here